Wednesday, April 26, 2006

Debate and Authority

People, who know me, will confirm it, I’m sure, I talk a lot. Sometimes, however, I sit back and just watch. Yes, watch, not listen. That usually happens when I’m not really interested in the contents of the debate. I like to listen to people argue their position and listen to what they say and even more, how they say it.
I was present at one such meeting today, among some very intelligent people. What caught my attention, however, was the fact it’s sometimes more important who’s making the argument than the actual argument made. Authority of the speaker transfers itself to the authority of the argument. It’s an argumentative fallacy, to give argument more or less merit, simply based on the popularity of the person making the argument.
The really interesting question is what that means for the value of the conclusion reached. An argument could be made that a more popular person is usually smarter and therefore it’s only natural that that person’s arguments should prevail. I don’t buy it. I think most people use their authority to advance their lines of argumentation, to varying degrees of success. I do not think it’s a conscious process for most. The result, however, is a conclusion that is much more likely to be according to the opinion of some people, regardless of its intrinsic value.
I like to argue for freedom of expression among equals on a state level, so it seems fitting that the first post of this blog is about that same freedom applied on a small scale, on the level of a few people discussing something over a beer. It is essential to understand that added value of arguments does not come from the authority of the speaker, even on this very simple level. Quality of the debate is proportionate to the equality of participants, on all levels. Submissiveness to authority, without any rational reason whatsoever, is the first step away from the truth.

8 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think you have a very valid point. Weaker debaters will almost always lose out over strong debaters, even if the facts and case are in their court.

We had debating classes when I went to Collega. Best thing I did was to argue a point I personally didn't believe in just to piss off the other party. Said party was already insecure about debating and started the discussion on a totally wrong footing. It was quite fun taking a chunk out of her wind.

Though her case was stronger, she still 'lost', and that while I was actually in her court...

Good luck with the Bloggin'!

10:14 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Here I have to disagree with you Sergej, especially on the point of origin of authority. In my opinion it has very little to do with the persons popularity, and a lot to do with the persons experience. You and I were both at the same discussion, yesterday, so I think we can both agree whose arguments had more weight over others. However I fail to see the submissiveness that you deplore so much. Arguments that were without merit or were logically flawed were dismissed no matter who they came from.

Welcome to the bloggin world :)

11:37 AM  
Blogger Sergej said...

There were no arguments at that discussion that were completely logically flawed or without merit. My assertion was merely that it was fun to watch what tipped the scale.

12:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Tipping the scale is a delicate business. And as many (debate) trainers have written: Your overall success depends on your manner and matter. And in the manner dep. your reputation ( or lets say popularity - you two haven't defined the term, but please don't go into a definitional debate :) ) is very important.
And that is why I love to be adjudicated by someone who doesn't know me and thinks I am the worst or the best in advance.

Loking forward to new posts. Hope you'll be more frequent poster than I am :)

1:11 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The issue has to do with argumentation in general.

In an "argument" or a "debate", often the purpose is to persuade either the interlocutor or third party observers that your perspective is more valid than that of your interlocutor. And when people move into "persuasion" mode, all tactics are deployed ... the persuasiveness of logic, of rhetoric, of authority (in terms of perceived authoritativeness due to popularity or previously received views or reputation, etc.) .... it's all deployed in an efort to persuade others of the correctness of one's viewpoint.

If we limit permissible "relevant" lines of argumentation to what can be logically demonstrated and "proven", it helps to correct somewhat for other non-logical forms of debate and persuasion. Some would say, however, that to limit permissible debate to only that which can be logically demonstrated gives short shrift to the full panoply of life and humanity ... which is an interesting debate in itself!

2:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's all about credibility. And credibility comes from various sources, unfortunately only a minority of them are connected to the subject that the person is talking about.
I also think believing people just because of what they look like, or what they wear, or who their father is; is stupid. However, authority can (here I agree with Spela) also come from experience and the respect that a certain people enjoys, and in these cases, I don't have a problem with the fact that people will believe such a person much easier than perhaps someone else.
You know, 'content', 'arguments', those are not isolated categories - they exist in connection with the world, the people who are making them.
And finally, 'truth' is a very stretchable concept, and it surprises me that you are the one to use this word in an almost metaphysical sense (cf. your last sentence).
ps - If you have such a problem with believing an authority, why would you wear a formal suit to work?

3:29 PM  
Blogger Sergej said...

I do have a problem with the fact that people will believe authority sooner. That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t believe an expert with a PhD in Physics sooner when it comes to explaining natural phenomenon. That same person, however, is no more an expert about discussing personal beliefs and world views than you and me. Neither is anyone else, simply due to his position in society.
What it comes down to, in the end, is that in order to believe that there is more value in an argument stated by a person with more authority, you have to trust the process that puts people in a position of authority, as it is. For that process to be optimal, it had to be conducted by a selection among equals in the first place. I do not believe that is often the case. If it indeed was performed like that, there is no reason not to adopt it for further discussion, is there?
And yes, I like the Truth. That has nothing to do with wearing a suit to work though. I do that to get paid, silly.

3:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Being in the same debate, I can agree with you, that it was interesting looking into who asid what and how teh others responded on that. But Im not sure, weather it was the perosns past experience, carma or whatever.

But its probably all about how people see u. And use that if you can, liek you use all the other things when you try to convience...

I need to get an account, so that I wont be anonymus any more ;)

P.

10:20 AM  

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